Conrad_Dakarn 21 hours ago
"I've noted one thing when speaking to people in America about their games and tournaments and that's to do with the points costs. Almost every game you have is 2000pt or over. Even the tournaments seem to be centred around over 2000pts.
The 40k rulebook recommends that you play 1500-2000pts on a 6 by 4 board.
The MAJOR GW throne of skulls tournament is set at 1500pt, thus showing that GW believe 1500 is the ideal size for a tournament setting on a 6 by 4 board.
Most US games take place using over 2000pt in their tournaments.
Why am I bringing up points cost as an argument about balanced lists....simple really. You get more stuff for more points. In a 2000+ army you can afford to take pretty much anything you want because you've got the point spare to cram in those 3 land raiders or what-ever else and still take a decent set of troops and the like. In 1500 you're much more limited to your options and can't simply slap a list together using the hardest of everything because you'll find you quickly run out of points. An example would be 7 terminators with lightning claws, 1 chaplain and a land raid crusader....coming in at over 500 points. This takes up the main portion of your army for very little in terms of models. The other 1000 would have to contain the troops and any further support. If you're spamming your list as a combat heavy list (using the terminator example) you'd probably take 2 of the above and then take minimum troops and suddenly you're out of points for anything else. That's 2 armour 14 vehicles and a subsequent 16 wounds worth of models for over 1000 points.
A balanced list in 1500pt will contain enough of everything to deal with an orientated list any day of the week. The above example would, for example, find itself in trouble at the sight of a single Vindicator for only 115pt and perhaps 2-3 attack bikes with multi-meltas at 100-150pt. For a quarter of the value you've got two units that can take out the land raider and then the terminators inside with relative ease and do the same again the next turn....all the while, the terminators are trying to get to you to engage in combat. For 265pt, the 1000 odd has been delt with. You can then think on the other side of the box with the other 1235pt of your army for what else you might want to take....the theory works sound in any situation and you can create a list that can deal with any threat as well as maintaining a good balance all round.
A combat heavy army is always going to have the problem that they have to get to the opponent and when they do get their, they have to ensure they can't be shot after they've destroyed the unit they've charged.
A gun line army has to be able to deal with a combat army that can jump on them by turn 2....or even worse....try and compete with another gun line army of equal magnitude.
By creating these sorts of lists for limited points, you've put inherent weakness in your army. Sure, in over 2000pt it's a lot easier to get rid of these weaknesses but that's kind of my point.....1500pt is more challenging for list building in my opinion.
However....I'm over the pond in the UK and we do play a very different style of game to yourselves. Not just in the points but our tactics and game play seem to vary from certain things that you do. So, my opinion may not be valid in terms of a US situation....but, I do plan on coming over eventually for a week's holiday and taking part in one of your larger tournaments, just to get a feel for it....so, who knows? I may learn a few things or hand out some lessons.
A current favoured marine list is quite balanced for all round but with a few small space weaknesses which are covered with the method of the build and my gaming style. My list is also built around 6 games with the different set ups as detailed in the 40k book and a 1500pt limit (UK GT). I've won every game so far with this list...and not just against standard players or other standard lists. I've played a 6 AV14 guard tank army, a space wolf army, a 10 terminator and chaplain marine army and a seer council build Eldar list. Each game with different mission types and deployment. The list is, for me, a balanced list."
The 40k rulebook recommends that you play 1500-2000pts on a 6 by 4 board.
The MAJOR GW throne of skulls tournament is set at 1500pt, thus showing that GW believe 1500 is the ideal size for a tournament setting on a 6 by 4 board.
Most US games take place using over 2000pt in their tournaments.
Why am I bringing up points cost as an argument about balanced lists....simple really. You get more stuff for more points. In a 2000+ army you can afford to take pretty much anything you want because you've got the point spare to cram in those 3 land raiders or what-ever else and still take a decent set of troops and the like. In 1500 you're much more limited to your options and can't simply slap a list together using the hardest of everything because you'll find you quickly run out of points. An example would be 7 terminators with lightning claws, 1 chaplain and a land raid crusader....coming in at over 500 points. This takes up the main portion of your army for very little in terms of models. The other 1000 would have to contain the troops and any further support. If you're spamming your list as a combat heavy list (using the terminator example) you'd probably take 2 of the above and then take minimum troops and suddenly you're out of points for anything else. That's 2 armour 14 vehicles and a subsequent 16 wounds worth of models for over 1000 points.
A balanced list in 1500pt will contain enough of everything to deal with an orientated list any day of the week. The above example would, for example, find itself in trouble at the sight of a single Vindicator for only 115pt and perhaps 2-3 attack bikes with multi-meltas at 100-150pt. For a quarter of the value you've got two units that can take out the land raider and then the terminators inside with relative ease and do the same again the next turn....all the while, the terminators are trying to get to you to engage in combat. For 265pt, the 1000 odd has been delt with. You can then think on the other side of the box with the other 1235pt of your army for what else you might want to take....the theory works sound in any situation and you can create a list that can deal with any threat as well as maintaining a good balance all round.
A combat heavy army is always going to have the problem that they have to get to the opponent and when they do get their, they have to ensure they can't be shot after they've destroyed the unit they've charged.
A gun line army has to be able to deal with a combat army that can jump on them by turn 2....or even worse....try and compete with another gun line army of equal magnitude.
By creating these sorts of lists for limited points, you've put inherent weakness in your army. Sure, in over 2000pt it's a lot easier to get rid of these weaknesses but that's kind of my point.....1500pt is more challenging for list building in my opinion.
However....I'm over the pond in the UK and we do play a very different style of game to yourselves. Not just in the points but our tactics and game play seem to vary from certain things that you do. So, my opinion may not be valid in terms of a US situation....but, I do plan on coming over eventually for a week's holiday and taking part in one of your larger tournaments, just to get a feel for it....so, who knows? I may learn a few things or hand out some lessons.
A current favoured marine list is quite balanced for all round but with a few small space weaknesses which are covered with the method of the build and my gaming style. My list is also built around 6 games with the different set ups as detailed in the 40k book and a 1500pt limit (UK GT). I've won every game so far with this list...and not just against standard players or other standard lists. I've played a 6 AV14 guard tank army, a space wolf army, a 10 terminator and chaplain marine army and a seer council build Eldar list. Each game with different mission types and deployment. The list is, for me, a balanced list."
I was listening to the 40k Radio episode where they discussed 2000 point lists, saying that they like the ability to take a fully balanced list with lots of goodies. The question is, do you want a challenging list-building experience and be limited in what you can play, or do you want to field the cool stuff and minimize list-building.
ReplyDeleteEither way you're playing another person with an equal point value, so the game's challenge is the same. Hell, a complete mirror-match is more of a tactical challenge - you have the exact same tools, the person who uses them better wins.